Subject: fyi Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 18:44:58, -0500 From: (MS LYNN M O'SHEA) To:,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, -- [ From: Lynn O'Shea * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] -- Expanded recipient data: To: Cathiezoo \ America On-Line: (cathiezoo) To: Charles E. Wells \ CompuServe: (cwells4) To: Deadgrunt \ America On-Line: (deadgrunt) To: For2won \ America On-Line: (for2won) To: Macvsog1 \ America On-Line: (macvsog1) To: Ray Melens \ America On-Line: (rmelens) To: Smsgt Chuck Youngblood \ America On-Line: (cyyngblood) **************************************************************************** Sept 12, 1998 NKorea Pilots Fought in Vietnam War SEOUL, South Korea (AP) -- More than 800 North Korean military pilots flew Soviet-provided MiG jets against U.S. fighters during the Vietnam War, a North Korean defector said in an interview published today. Lee Chul Soo, a North Korean air force captain who defected to Seoul in a Soviet-built MiG-19 in 1996, spoke to the Chosun Ilbo newspaper. The newspaper said it was the first confirmation that North Korean air force pilots participated in the Vietnam War. Lee said between 1967 and 1972, 70 North Korean pilots were sent to Vietnam at a time on a six-month rotation to fly MiG-17 and MiG-21 jets provided by the Soviet Union. "It's known in the North Korean air force that 80 North Korean pilots were killed in action, in which over 100 U.S. planes were shot down," Lee said in the interview. Lee also said 30 North Korean air force pilots flew MiG jets for Egypt in the 1973 Mideast War with Israel. "They were first sent to Moscow, disguised as students going to school there, and then to Egypt," he said. Lee, 32, was commissioned as a South Korean air force major after he defected and now instructs South Korean pilots on North Korean fighter jet maneuvers. South Korea participated in the Vietnam War on the side of the United States. From 1965 to 1973, 320,000 South Korean soldiers were sent to Vietnam. The maximum number of South Korean troops there at one time was 50,000. More than 5,000 South Koreans were killed. ***************************************************************************** Subject: fyi Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 18:45:03, -0500 From: (MS LYNN M O'SHEA) To:,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, -- [ From: Lynn O'Shea * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] -- Expanded recipient data: To: Cathiezoo \ America On-Line: (cathiezoo) To: Charles E. Wells \ CompuServe: (cwells4) To: Deadgrunt \ America On-Line: (deadgrunt) To: For2won \ America On-Line: (for2won) To: Macvsog1 \ America On-Line: (macvsog1) To: Ray Melens \ America On-Line: (rmelens) To: Smsgt Chuck Youngblood \ America On-Line: (cyyngblood) Sept. 14, 1998 Laos-US-MIAs AP US & World BANGKOK, Thailand (AP) -- A U.S.-Laotian task force searching for the remains of Americans missing in action since the Vietnam War has reportedly found dozens of bones, human teeth and two dog tags. The discoveries were made at eight plane crash sites over the last six months, Laotian government radio said Monday. The team was trying to account for 34 MIAs. The team announced its findings to map a new search plan for the next six months, particularly in provinces that were heavily bombed during the war, the radio said. The United States conducted a secret war in Laos mainly involving air strikes during its conflict with neighboring Vietnam during the 1960s and '70s. ************************************************************************************* National Alliance of Families For the Return of America's Missing Servicemen World War II - Korea - Cold War - Vietnam Dolores Alfond - Voice/Fax 425-881-1499 Lynn O'Shea ------- Voice/Fax 718-846-4350 E-Mail-------------- PGGK94A@PRODIGY.COM Web Site ------------- Bits N Pieces Nov. 7th, 1998 Get Well Wishes To - Irene Mandra sister of, Korean War POW/MIA, Philip Mandra. ############# Mr. Smith Goes To Russia - Senator Bob Smith leaves for Moscow, next week. As a member of the U.S. - Russian Joint Commission on POWs and MIAs, Senator Smith will meet with Russian official to discuss records in Russian custody relating to our POW/MIAs. It is fitting, the meeting will take place on November 11th, Veterans Day. "I can think of no better way for me to honor my fellow veterans next week than to continue my work in support of the fullest possible accounting of our missing comrades," Senator Smith said. According to a Press Release, issued by senator smith (R-NH,) dated November 6th, "Russian officials have promised to turn over several thousand pages of Korean War documents that are believed to shed light on the fate of some 8,000 unaccounted for Americans from that war. As the U.S. Chairman of the Commission's Vietnam Working Group, Smith also indicated that he will be pursuing new and important leads from Russia concerning the possible fate of Vietnam War POWs." ############# >From United Press International - MIA talks conclude in Hanoi, By Mike Billington - "Washington, Nov. 4-- The United States and Vietnam have ended a series of high-level talks in Hanoi with promises of mutual cooperation in the ongoing search for troops listed as missing in action ." "The Pentagon said today that the two nations have agreed to concentrate on a broad range of future initiatives including the resolution of alleged sightings of American GIs still thought to be held as prisoners of war. Vietnamese and U.S. officials also agreed to conduct more field searches for the remains of troops killed during the war. They have also agreed to increase the level of cooperation between the countries in terms of providing documents to investigators trying to find out what happened to the thousands of troops on both sides who have never been accounted for." "The Army is making its records relating to the burial sites for Vietnamese soldiers killed in action available to the Vietnamese government as part of that initiative. Deputy Assistant Defense Secretary Robert L. Jones led the U.S. delegation. Today he said he has been impressed with the fact that Vietnamese citizens have come forward with a lot of information about the burial sites of U.S. troops killed in action." ################ Two Questions - If Clinton certified the Vietnamese as "fully cooperating," why did we need an agreement to "increase the level of cooperation between the countries?" "MIA Talks" - What happened to POW? ################ Vietnamese Cooperation - From the Associated Press, Nov 4th, by Paul Alexander -- "HANOI, Vietnam (AP) -- U.S. officials on Wednesday praised Vietnamese cooperation over the last decade in helping to account for American troops still missing from the Vietnam War." "We are very happy with the results we have achieved," said Bob Jones, deputy assistant secretary of defense for prisoners of war and missing personnel affairs. "It's a very emotional issue, something that's very close to the hearts of the American people...." "So far, more than 200 investigations into alleged sightings of live POWs have failed to yield any evidence that Vietnam still holds any Americans a quarter-century after the end of the war. Jones said Vietnamese cooperation on the sensitive subject "clearly demonstrates .. . the willingness of the government to open doors to all areas." "But he was not willing to rule out that a POW might emerge someday. "There is always hope that there is a live American somewhere," he said, pointing to recent cases in which a South Korean veteran returned from North Korea after living there since the 1950-53 Korean War, and Japanese POWs were freed from a Russian gulag." "Officials say the cases of Last Known Alive -- when Americans were seen alive and in the proximity of North Vietnamese forces -- have shrunk from 196 to 43, with 35 sets of remains returned and enough information to determine that the others were dead." ############ One of those Last Known Alive Cases - considered accounted for is Marine L/Cpl Kenneth Plumadore. The fact is no one, with the exception of the Vietnamese, knows where Kenny is. He is not the remains repatriated from Vietnam, in 1986. He was not in the grave in Indiana. Nor, was he in the California grave. >From what we can gather, nothing has been done to identify the remains exhumed from the California grave. Government officials continue to insist the portion of jaw bone commingled with the full remains, is Kenny Plumadore. This in spite of the FACT that the jaw bone contains wisdom teeth, and all of L/Cpl Plumadore's wisdom teeth were removed prior to his joining the Marines. CIL-HI needs the jaw bone to be Kenny. So, the jaw bone will be Kenny, in spite of the facts. When CIL-HI needed an unknown, they stripped Michael Blassie of his identity and made him Unknown. They don't identify remains, they name them. They don't even need remains to bury someone. CIL-HI and the Marines - if you think the California remains are "the last set of remains," think again. ############# Why does Johnnie Webb still have a job? ############# DAV Ttakes Strong Stand - In a press release dated, October 20th, the Disabled American Veterans call for a "full accounting of Korean War POWs." "The United States Government has a moral obligation to seek out and disclose information about those who failed to return home. Furthermore , the government must do everything in its power to obtain the fullest possible accounting of those listed as POW-MIA. And if any of those servicemembers are still alive, the government must not shirk its responsibility to ensure that those who wish to return are allowed to come home," said DAV National Commander Andrew A. Kistler. ############## North Korea Repatriates Remains - From United Press International By Mike Billington - WASHINGTON, Nov. 5 (UPI) -- "North Korea is set to return the remains Friday of nine U.S. servicemen listed as missing in action since the Korean War...." "...The remains were recovered during a 24-day project along the Chong Chon river about 100 miles north of Pyongyang, Pentagon spokesman Navy Capt. Michael Doubleday said today. The gesture marks a thaw in the chilly relations between the United States and North Korea...." ############# Vietnam Repatriates Remains - From the Associated Press Nov. 5th - " HANOI, Vietnam (AP) -- Three sets of remains believed to be from American soldiers killed during the Vietnam War were repatriated to the United States today...." ############# The More Things Change the More They Stay The Same - From UK Reuters - "London, Nov 2 (Reuters) - A poignant letter written by Jungle Book author Rudyard Kipling during a desperate but ultimately fruitless search for his missing son during World War One is to be sold in London next week, auctioneers Phillips said on Monday." "Tragically, Kipling's only son John was already dead, aged just 17, when the letter was written in November 1915. It was addressed to Irish guardsman Private W. Fitzpatrick who was in hospital after being injured in the war, and begged for news of John Kipling, who had been reported missing in action a month earlier." "I should be most grateful if you could tell me anything you may remember about the fight on that day, or if you are able to give me the names of any men who you think may think may be able to help me," wrote Kipling, author of classic novels set in colonial India as well as the favourite British poem "If." "It was another two years before John Kipling's death on September 27, 1915, at the Battle of Loos in France was confirmed to his distraught father, whose wartime poem "Have you news of my boy Jack?" told of his grief." "Kipling never found his son whose body was only discovered and identified in 1992, 56 years after the writer's death. But as a lasting tribute, Kipling paid a British gardener to sound the Last Post trumpet lament every night at the Menin Gate war memorial at Ypres." ############ November 11th, 1998 - Marks the 80th Anniversary of the end of World War I. ############# A word about Intelligence - we've shared with you several reports along with their real time evaluation and in some cases the evaluation done 25 + years later. Some reports clearly show American Servicemen in captivity, men who did not come home. That does not mean all intelligence reports are accurate. Some are true fabrications. It was the job of the analyst to weigh the facts and make the determination. The Real Time analysts had the advantage of a face to face confrontation with the source. That is why we put such high value on the Real Time analyst. They were there! They knew their jobs and did them well. One report, deemed a fabrication, by the real time analysis, was received in November of 1971. The source reported sighting POWs at Ha Lo between November 15th and December 1st, 1970. Using the pre-capture book of photos, the source identified 33 servicemen as POWs in Ha Lo. The names are a mix of returnees and men still missing. In an effort to confirm the source's reliability, he was polygraphed three times, once by South Vietnamese personnel and twice by U.S. personnel. Discussing the third polygraph the report reads: "Source made no admissions during the pre test interview. During post-test interrogation, Source admitted that he saw the prisoners being led into the prison compound were blindfolded and that the light was poor, making identification of them difficult. He also admitted that his twice daily trips to the dispensary took place during the first five days he was a Hoa Lo Prisoner, and the the U.S. PW arrived on his ninth day at the prison, he had lied saying he saw them during these trips. He then stated he had seen them when he was let out of his cell to eat." In conclusion the report states: "Source was overly cooperative throughout all interrogation sessions. It is the opinion of all the CMIC interrogators, who questioned the Source that he was actively fabricating information and, in some cases practicing outright deception ." Here is a case of a true fabrication, recognized by the real time analysis. If the source was telling the truth, it was recognized, just as this fabrication was recognized. If we were to depend on a reports evaluation, we would always take the real time evaluation. ############# Remember - contributions are urgently needed to keep the Alliance going. Next years Forum is in jeopardy, as is our very existence. If you haven't already done so, please make your contribution now. Donations may be mailed to: National Alliance of Families P.O. Box 40327 Bellevue, Wa. 98015National Alliance of Families For the Return of America's Missing Servicemen World War II - Korea - Cold War - Vietnam Dolores Alfond - Voice/Fax 425-881-1499 Lynn O'Shea ------- Voice/Fax 718-846-4350 E-Mail-------------- PGGK94A@PRODIGY.COM Web Site ------------- ***********************************************************************************************Father, Son To Be on Vietnam Wall By SUSANNE M. SCHAFER - AP Military Writer WASHINGTON (AP) -- A father and son will have their names etched on the Vietnam Veterans Memorial -- the only such family members killed during U.S. involvement in the Southeast Asia war. The name of Air Force Tech. Sgt. Richard B. Fitzgibbon Jr., who died in Vietnam in 1956, will be placed on the Vietnam Veterans Memorial this spring. Fitzgibbon's son, Marine Lance Cpl. Richard Fitzgibbon III, was killed in action in Vietnam on Sept. 7, 1965. "An extensive search of the records indicates they were the only American father and son service members to die in Vietnam," the Pentagon said in a statement Friday. The statement said the elder Fitzgibbon died "in the line of duty" in Vietnam on June 8, 1956, but it did not exactly state how he died. He was a member of the Military Assistance Advisory Group in Vietnam. For a number of reasons and due to varying regulations , his name was not allowed to be placed on the Vietnam memorial. The military's Southeast Asia Casualty Database had used Jan. 1, 1961 , as its entry date for inclusion. The decision to include him makes the elder Fitzgibbon the earliest casualty to be entered into the data base, the Pentagon statement said. The change was granted after the Air Force formally requested a review. Now, the establishment of the Military Assistance Advisory Group in Vietnam, on Nov. 1, 1955, will be recognized as the earliest qualifying date for entry to the casualty data base and for inclusion on the memorial. In years past, the names of eight other pre-1961 casualties have been added to the V-shaped memorial. With the inclusion of the elder Fitzgibbon's name, there will be 58,192 names etched on the black granite memorial, according to Pentagon spokesman Lt. Col. Tom Begines. The father's and the son's names will not appear next to each other because the individuals are grouped according to dates of each service member's death, Begines said. Over the years, names have been added to the memorial, as the missing in action have been identified, or if someone died later from wounds inflicted during the conflict. Defense Department and Air Force officials will present the findings of the Pentagon decision to Fitzgibbon family members on Monday in Stoneham, Mass. *************************************************************************

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